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苦恼,英文不好!

发表于15天前 12:31  收藏  举报  回帖10
[图]
15天前 12:31
J.R.R.托尔金这两段在说啥呢?
大佬们给解解~
I dislike Allegory – the conscious and intentional allegory – yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language. (And, of course, the more 'life' a story has the more readily will it be susceptible of allegorical interpretations: while the better a deliberate allegory is made the more nearly will it be acceptable just as a story.) Anyway all this stuff13 is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, and the Machine. With Fall inevitably, and that motive occurs in several modes. With Mortality, especially as it affects art and the creative (or as I should say, sub-creative) desire which seems to have no biological function, and to be apart from the satisfactions of plain ordinary biological life, with which, in our world, it is indeed usually at strife. This desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it. It has various opportunities of 'Fall'. It may become possessive, clinging to the things made as 'its own', the sub-creator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the laws of the Creator – especially against mortality. Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of development of the inherent inner powers or talents — or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised.
I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation. The 'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death. The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines; but the problem : that this frightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root, the desire to benefit the world and others — speedily and according to the benefactor's own plans — is a recurrent motive.
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[图] Talker2020   15天前 12:42
你只会AI? @TimeAndRiver
[图] TimeAndRiver   15天前 12:36
这段话主要表达了以下几个观点:
一、对寓言的态度及解释神话童话的语言困境
作者不喜欢有意为之的寓言,但也承认在解释神话或童话的主旨时不得不使用寓言式的语言。同时指出故事的生命力越强越易被寓言式解读,而好的寓言也容易作为故事被接受。
二、围绕“堕落、死亡和机器”的主题探讨
1. 堕落的多种形式:主题围绕堕落、死亡和机器展开,堕落以多种形式出现,不可避免。
2. 死亡与艺术及创造性欲望的关系:死亡尤其影响艺术和创造性欲望,这种欲望没有生物学功能,与普通生物性生活的满足感相分离且常与之冲突。创造性欲望一方面热爱真实世界,一方面又充满死亡意识且不满足于此,有多种“堕落”的可能。
3. 占有欲与反抗造物主法则:可能变得占有欲强,次创造者会把创造物当作自己的,甚至想成为主宰和上帝,反抗造物主法则特别是死亡法则。
4. 对权力的渴望及导致的结果:这种反抗会导致对权力的渴望,为使意志更快生效而走向对机器(或魔法)的追求。这里的机器指使用外部计划或装置而非发展内在力量或才能,甚至以支配的腐败动机使用才能,如推平真实世界或强迫其他意志。作者认为机器是现代更明显的形式,且与魔法的关系比通常认为的更密切。
[图] TimeAndRiver   15天前 12:38
我劝你别看这些
这些都是阻碍你去实践的原因
[图] snowfields   15天前 12:39
我不喜欢寓言——那种有意识、故意的寓言——然而,任何试图解释神话或童话故事主旨的尝试都必须使用寓言性的语言。(当然,一个故事的“生命力”越强,就越容易被进行寓言式的解读;而一个精心创作的寓言越好,它就越容易仅仅作为一个故事被接受。)不管怎样,所有这些内容主要涉及堕落、死亡和机械。堕落不可避免,且这种动机以几种形式出现。涉及死亡,尤其是因为它影响到艺术和创造性(或者如我应该说的,次级创造)欲望,这种欲望似乎没有生物学功能,且与普通平凡的生物性生活的满足感相分离,在我们的世界里,它确实通常与之冲突。这种欲望一方面与对真实的原初世界充满激情的爱紧密相连,因此充满了死亡意识,但又不满足于此。它有各种“堕落”的机会。它可能变得占有欲强,紧紧抓住所创造的事物当作“自己的”,次级创造者希望成为他私人创造的主宰和上帝。他会反抗造物主的法则——尤其是反抗死亡。这两者(单独或一起)都会导致对权力的渴望,为了使意志更快地生效——进而导致对机械(或魔法)的追求。这里所说的“机械”,我指的是所有使用外部计划或装置(器具),而非发展内在固有的力量或才能——或者甚至是带着支配的堕落动机使用这些才能:推平真实世界,或强迫其他意志。机械是我们更明显的现代形式,尽管它与魔法的关系比通常所认识到的更为密切。我没有始终如一地使用“魔法”这个词,事实上,精灵女王加拉德瑞尔不得不就霍比特人对这个词的混乱使用向他们提出告诫,他们把这个词既用于敌人的装置和操作,也用于精灵的装置和操作。
我没有始终如一地使用这个词,是因为没有一个词可以用来形容后者(因为所有人类的故事都遭受了同样的混乱)。但是精灵在我的故事中是为了展示这种区别。他们的“魔法”是艺术,摆脱了许多人类的局限:更轻松、更迅速、更完美(产品和愿景完美对应)。它的目标是艺术而非权力,是次级创造而非支配以及对创造物的暴虐重塑。“精灵”是“不朽的”,至少就这个世界而言是这样:因此他们更关心的是在时间和变化中不死所带来的悲伤和负担,而非死亡。以连续形式出现的敌人总是“自然地”只关心纯粹的统治,因此是魔法和机械之主;但问题是:这种可怕的邪恶能够而且确实来自一个看似良好的根源,即想要迅速按照施惠者自己的计划造福世界和他人的愿望——这是一个反复出现的动机。
[图] Talker2020   15天前 12:42
你只会AI? @TimeAndRiver
[图] Talker2020   15天前 12:44
Both of these (alone or together) 里
these指啥? @snowfields
[图] snowfields   15天前 12:48
“sub-creator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation”(次级创造者希望成为他私人创造的主宰和上帝)
以及
“He will rebel against the laws of the Creator – especially against mortality”(他会反抗造物主的法则——尤其是反抗死亡)
这两种情况 @Talker2020
[图] snowfields   15天前 12:57
他真是一言难尽 @Talker2020
[图] Talker2020   15天前 13:13
厉害了!
J.K.罗琳真的从托尔金身上受益良多,托尔金是牛津大学语言学教授,且写出《魔戒/指环王》那年已经接近60岁了,思想已经非常成熟,《哈利·波特》的主题(可以说完完全全)、魔法元素基本继承自托尔金,罗琳肯定是仔仔细细读过托尔金的……
J.K.罗琳一定是非常向往牛津大学的。你看她笔下霍格沃茨的样子,基本是参照牛津大学写的;前段时间本青意外发现了一本书《牛津植物史》,牛津有个植物园,这本书介绍了牛津史上对很多植物的研究,妈蛋,罗琳书中的很多植物竟然全来自这个植物园、来自这本书! @snowfields
[图] snowfields   15天前 13:37
我觉得哪个城市都有植物园
Rowling took entry exams for Oxford University in 1982 but was unsuccessful, and instead studied at Exeter. @Talker2020
[图] Talker2020   15天前 13:48
你看了《牛津植物史》就知道了。
牛津大学建校于11~12世纪,建校目的是为了研究神学,所以你可以想象一下这个植物园的神奇,它的很多植物都被赋予了神秘、玄学气息…
《哈利·波特》第二部里主要的神奇药草曼德拉草就来自这本书~ @snowfields
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